Help with using LS with Cubase and VSL

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dougal2
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Help with using LS with Cubase and VSL

Post by dougal2 » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:50 pm

Hi there,

I'm currently rebuilding my studio and also currently have custody of a friend of mine's VSL 1st ed. set.

I'm trying to get my head around using the VSL with LS, as I don't have any other software capable of using the GIG format.

I notice that most GIG files contain many instruments, or articulations in a single file, each assigned to a different bank/program number combination.

I've read threads on this forum that state that with an Instrument Map it's possible to change instrument/articulation with explicit program/bank change messages.

However, with MIDI tracks in Cubase it's possible to assign a bank and prog. number to a track, and not use explicit bank/prog change messages. I'm having trouble getting this running with LS and Fantasia.

Eg. I have 2 MIDI tracks in Cubase:
1. Assigned to Channel 1, Bank 0, Prog 2 for "String Ensemble / VL_sus"
2. Assigned to Channel 1, Bank 0, Prog 5 for "String Ensemble / VA_sus"

I notice that the GIG file labels prog 0 as "BASIC INSTRUMENTS" and I believe that that is what you'd load in GigaStudio for this to work (talking to my friend, I've never used GS myself).

What do I need to set up and load into Fantasia to get LS to distinguish the different instruments on these two MIDI tracks ? At present I either get the same instrument on both tracks, or nothing sounding at all.

Help please?

ccherrett
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Re: Help with using LS with Cubase and VSL

Post by ccherrett » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:21 am

I use VSL Pro with great success under linux. I cannot speak for Cubase but a few of us have been working on bank and program changes on the fly for the piano roll editor:

http://www.openoctave.org/software

I worked for 4 years to get this pipeline right and am finally happy with where things are at.

BASIC INSTRUMENTS is a place holder containing no samples. It is the way VSL decided to communicate their categories of samples within the gig file itself.

As for what it would take. All I can offer is a linux pipeline as follows:

- lcsp midi map for linuxsampler
- Rosegarden map to load in Open Octave Midi (Open Octave Midi is based on Rosegarden 1.7.3)

You then have complete control over linuxsamplers channels from within Open Octave Midi.

Very sweet setup with full controll of all your bank and program changes by name with the click of a button.

Read more on the OpenOctave.org site
Christopher Cherrett
Founder of The Open Octave Project
http://www.openoctave.org

dougal2
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Re: Help with using LS with Cubase and VSL

Post by dougal2 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:36 am

Thanks for the info ccherrett. However, I cannot migrate to Rosegarden/OOM just yet because of my cubase-centric work.

I'm also intrigued though why it's necessary to go to the effort of inserting prog change messages into a track. I can see 2 problems.

1. It's more work
2. You end up with a single track containing data for multiple instruments.

So, my original query basically boils down to:

"How do I get multiple instruments to play over a single MIDI channel to fire samples from a single GIG file, whilst separating those instruments onto different MIDI tracks?"
Additional to that is that the instruments need to be able to play simultaneously.

I still can't see how it can be done with LS - is this a design fault or missing feature ?

Andreas
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Re: Help with using LS with Cubase and VSL

Post by Andreas » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:26 pm

I might be wrong but, in the view of LinuxSampler or GigaStudio, there is no difference if the program change is assigned to a track in Cubase or if it is inserted explicitly into the track. Assigning a program change to a track just makes sure Cubase sends a program change command to the synth before it starts playing the track.

LS doesn't have support for the bank and program change information stored in a gig file, but with the help of midi maps, you can get the same functionality.

There's nothing that stops you from having two or more tracks in cubase with separate instruments all connected to one LinuxSampler instance. It's just important that the tracks are configured to use separate MIDI channels. I don't understand why you would want to use the same MIDI channel for your different tracks.

dougal2
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Re: Help with using LS with Cubase and VSL

Post by dougal2 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:32 pm

I do have MIDI channel efficiency in mind due to currently only having 1 physical MIDI link between the machines.

I have also looked into using some sort of MIDI over network, but I can't find a (free) solution that will transmit from windows to linux.

ccherrett
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Re: Help with using LS with Cubase and VSL

Post by ccherrett » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:08 pm

dougal2 wrote:Thanks for the info ccherrett. However, I cannot migrate to Rosegarden/OOM just yet because of my cubase-centric work.

I'm also intrigued though why it's necessary to go to the effort of inserting prog change messages into a track. I can see 2 problems.

1. It's more work
2. You end up with a single track containing data for multiple instruments.

So, my original query basically boils down to:

"How do I get multiple instruments to play over a single MIDI channel to fire samples from a single GIG file, whilst separating those instruments onto different MIDI tracks?"
Additional to that is that the instruments need to be able to play simultaneously.

I still can't see how it can be done with LS - is this a design fault or missing feature ?
All I can say is my setup is easy :)
Christopher Cherrett
Founder of The Open Octave Project
http://www.openoctave.org

dougal2
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Re: Help with using LS with Cubase and VSL

Post by dougal2 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:21 pm

uh, great, ok, but I don't have your setup ;)

I tried today to use MIDI routing over the network with netjack/jack2 between windows and linux. It doesn't work. All the ports appeared on each side of the connection OK, but jackd went to 100% CPU on both machines and no MIDI data was received on the linux machine. This was with using the Maple Virtual MIDI Cable on the windows machine to get MIDI from cubase to the local jack server.
I have yet to try switching the server/client roles of the netjack setup.

Oh well, I guess I'll have to put up with a limited 16-channel setup and lots of duplicate-loaded GIG files in LS.
Last edited by dougal2 on Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dougal2
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Re: Help with using LS with Cubase and VSL

Post by dougal2 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:50 pm

dougal2 wrote:I have yet to try switching the server/client roles of the netjack setup.
For the record, I got MIDI transmission using the LS machine as the netjack master, but the audio that returned was garbled beyond belief. I guess this isn't a good route to go, especially as the startup sequence is also very contrived.

Alex
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Re: Help with using LS with Cubase and VSL

Post by Alex » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:03 pm

Dougal,
Using 1 track for multiple instruments is an incredible time saver. I've been doing this since the beginning of cubase and the simple apps before it, and 1 track per instrument articulation is no fun over hundred of track for orchestral or film work. (and i speak from full time experience)
Using clever bank and patch changes in a decent app saves a ton of donkey work. (See openoctave midi, just as an example)

So the reverse is the case. Instead of hundreds of tracks for multiple articulations across a full concert or film score, i end up with 50 or 60.

VSL have their own method of triggering different gig patches, including keyswitches, and now their closed source player.
There's no substitute for the simplicity of using a single track and quickly and efficiently triggering different articulations, provided the app you're using is capable of doing this in a workflow friendly fashion.

Linuxsampler is superb for this, and better than Gigastudio, Kontakt, or Sampletank, for handling large orchestral gig collections, and doing so in an efficient way. (and i owned and used all these across multiple boxes, for quite a few years before building a linux based operation for full time use.) LS handles memory and cpu use far better than any of them, and does so, if the user chooses, as a backend engine, not requiring a gui at all, once you setup your templates.

Cpu cycles and memory saved for more important uses, already.

As for netjack, you might want to check you have all the parameters set correctly. Chris and I have used Netjack succesfully, including running nx sessions in tandem, and it works well.

Alex.

dougal2
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Re: Help with using LS with Cubase and VSL

Post by dougal2 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:10 pm

OK, different articulations for the same instrument on the same track does make sense.

I was thinking more of the case of GIG files like the VSL "String Ensemble.gig" which contains banks for VL/VA/VC/KB.
What's the deal with being able to play each of those instruments from the same GIG file but on different MIDI tracks. Do I need to load the same GIG file 4 times in LS ? For me (at the minute) that would require 1/4 of my available MIDI channels.

Sorry if I sound a bit like I'm unsure of what I'm doing with regards to sampling/VSL, because that's partly true. I'm trying to get a handle on how this all best fits together.

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