Jackmidi, Windows, Clients

[Steele]

Hi Linuxsampler,

greetings from Denemo, the free GNU notation editor (http://www.denemo.org) . We are cross plattform (currently Linux and Windows, Mac is unsupported because nobody tries to compile it).

We only have Linux Midi-In note after note support with jack-midi at this time but but we do some research how to include a realtime Midi-out so Denemo can be used with, for example, Linuxsampler.
We currently have no developers for that so the process is in stagnation, but thats only a matter of time (or luck, if a Developer reads this and want to help out). In Linux there is the Jackmidi/Alsa Bridge so we can connect to real hardware or to alsa-apps, such as linuxsampler.

But in Windows and Mac there is no Jackmidi-bridge to connect to the specific midi-systems. So before it can work like in Linux there has to be some work to develop a winmme/coremidi <--> jackmidi bridge.

Now to the real thing:
Do you plan, or can you imagine, to go to Jackmidi instead of having three different midi-systems build in? For Linux it should be no problem. For Windows and MacOS maybe we can start some serious developing to create the missing bridge.

I think the advantages are clear: If Linuxsamper or Denemo would completly rely on jackmidi it would be very easy to maintain midi-code because jackmidi is a unified interface and the Software itself does not have to care about system-specific calls anymore.

Additionally with jackmidi there come things like netjack and other great features.

Interested?

Nils
http://www.denemo.org

P.S.
I personally(!) see Denemo and Linuxsampler somehow connected in their minds. I think both aims for classical musicians, those who want orchesterlibs and those who want to use notation.
I see that the "big" notation softwares like finale and sibelius come in bundles with windows "big" samplers like kontakt or vsl to provide good sounds out of the box. I think Linux and free software should provide similar things so users can produce music and art free. I'd like to discuss this with you, also.

[Alex]

Nils,
As i've already posted in the linuxmusicians forum, i'm a fan of Denemo, and would like to see it go forward. (I'm also a classical music and film composer, desperately trying to finish an album's worth)

I'll add to this my enthusiasm for a symbiotic relationship between Denemo and Lsampler. The advantages both ways are obvious, but the big jump for me (and i speak only for myself) is the potential for true articulation playback, not hindered at all by restrictions of port or channel.

Example. We're writing a 1st violin part, that requires multiple articulations. Instead of just 'voices' per staff, the ability to assign a port to staff would open a huge opportunity to refine a playback to a much higher quality.

Even more, if a Dictionary were built in Denemo, that is, a user defined list specifying playback per symbol or articulation, then we could, given robust enough hardware, playback even more nuance in our work.

So a brief example of the Dictionary could be as follows:

Cello staccato up bow (user defined port,channel, and selected symbol, or combination of symbols)
Cello staccato down bow (user defined port, channel, and selected symbol, or combination of symbols)
etc...

I have 45 ports, each with associated patches for each instrument in the orchestra, plus a couple.(2 each for strings)

If i could build a big dictionary template in which each port/channel/patch is assigned to a symbol, or combination of symbols, then it would effectively make scoring simple, and importantly, when recording the playback from LS, remove a large chunk of donkey work, manually building phrases, runs, etc from scratch.
It wouldn't remove entirely the need for manual work, but if it removed a major percentage of it, well, we're in front. (imho)

I appreciate the feedback you gave me about the keystrokable opportunities in Denemo, and i've been going through them, assigning, and refining the workflow. Denemo's most certainly a powerful and already mature tool in that aspect, and with practise, i've gradually been improving the workflow, to the point of near instinct. (more practise needed, though.)

It's my opinion we don't need to think about soundfont format, as the only primary sound playback device, anymore. Given the almost infinite capacity in LS to expand by port and channel, only limited by hardware, not software, I think LS would serve extremely well as a powerful playback device for a greatly improved playback, more akin to reality. Add to that the powerful Jack/Jackmidi, and many of the limits us long time notation and engraving writers have experience, would go away, and leave more time for writing.

2 pennies worth, and i wish the Denemo team continued success.

In appreciation,

Alex.

p.s. You already have Jack Server in Mac, so if anyone ever gets around to building Denemo for Mac, the interface is already there. Stephane Letz of Jack fame, has already built a Win version of Jack, albeit without jackmidi at the moment. (Stephane, please correct me here if you've included jackmidi recently)

So you're not as far away from this as you may think.

[ccherrett]

I would love to see something like this ported to the new Ardour 3.0

[Steele]

Before I made my posting to this board I had a talk with Stephane.

The point is: There is already Jackmidi both in Windows and MacOS, but there is no Bridge to the actual hardware (for example midi keyboard). In linux Jack has the -x option, that is the ALSAbridge, which is on by default in qjackctl so you can connect jackmidi to your hardware.

But in Windows (winmme) and MacOS (Coremidi) there is no such bridge. This is the missing link to completly use jackmidi instead of direct use of Winmme/Coremidi.

I will forward your ideas to the Denemo mailinglist. Feel free to join http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/denemo-devel

Nils

[Alex]

Nils, good news about jackmidi in Win and Mac.

Anther suggestion might be to talk to Nedko. He built a midi bridge called called A2Jmidid that does a good job of bridging midi hardware to jackmidi. I use it as part of a startup script here, and it works well.
Maybe some of that code is useable for Win and Mac os's.

Alex.

[Alex]

I would love to see something like this ported to the new Ardour 3.0

Chris, interesting idea.
Are you suggesting we port Denemo to Ardour, and then out to Lsampler?
Currently i'm using midi into LS, and out to Ardour for audio, but i can see where you're heading with this, given our joint testing of Ardour 3 midi.

Not to labour the point, but if Denemo were built with port and multichannel out per staff, we could cable it to any app that had port/channel capability.

We would also have the added benefit of unlimited staves, without having to juggle 24 staves or more into 16 midi channels.


Alex.

p.s. Anders wrote a decent how-to that demonstrated the capability of LS with FX, like Jconv. I can visualise writing score in LS, with LS using a big template complete with effects, positioning, verb, etc.. for a really decent playback option, with LS audio cabled into Ardour.

So many new options to explore, and only 24 hours in a day...............sigh..........

[ccherrett]

I would love to see something like this ported to the new Ardour 3.0

Chris, interesting idea.
Are you suggesting we port Denemo to Ardour, and then out to Lsampler?
Currently i'm using midi into LS, and out to Ardour for audio, but i can see where you're heading with this, given our joint testing of Ardour 3 midi.

Not to labour the point, but if Denemo were built with port and multichannel out per staff, we could cable it to any app that had port/channel capability.

We would also have the added benefit of unlimited staves, without having to juggle 24 staves or more into 16 midi channels.


Alex.

p.s. Anders wrote a decent how-to that demonstrated the capability of LS with FX, like Jconv. I can visualise writing score in LS, with LS using a big template complete with effects, positioning, verb, etc.. for a really decent playback option, with LS audio cabled into Ardour.

So many new options to explore, and only 24 hours in a day...............sigh..........

Something like a port would be nice. I am really looking forward to Ardour3 midi stabilizing, but after that there is still no notation editor.

P.S. I just finished converting my .lscp files to .rgd and .midnam. So time to build the default studio up and put my rig to the test

[ccherrett]

Nils,

I was reading this on the Denemo website as things planned:

"Adanced MIDI-Sequencer abilities - A JACK client lets you route the output to another programm like a synthesizer or a sampler. Including tempo-changes at any time,"

If that is so then in Ardour3 we should be able to use Denemo to control the midi tracks in ardour.

Thank would be nice!

[dahnielson]

I really dig Denemo and how it can be controlled from the keyboard just like a "word processor" for music (a "music processor"?) I guess it sure got the Alex Stone Seal of Approval.

I would love to see:

1. JACK MIDI out -- so that we can use it together with LinuxSampler (d'oh!)
2. JACK Transport -- so that it will start playback when I hit play in another JACK client (like Ardour, Qtractor, Hydrogen) and vice versa.
3. A "dictionary" just like Finale/Sibelius -- so that it can switch to the appropriate articulation during playback.

[Steele]

1. JACK MIDI out -- so that we can use it together with LinuxSampler (d'oh!)

On its way. But is LinuxSampler capable of Jack-Midi In? Denemo is Cross-Plattform, too, so they will work in Windows together if LS is jackmidi and not just native midi.
Btw. the bridges for winmme<->jackmidi and coremidi<-->jackmidi are nearly done and will be included in the the jack2-svn, soon.

2. JACK Transport -- so that it will start playback when I hit play in another JACK client (like Ardour, Qtractor, Hydrogen) and vice versa.

Of course.

3. A "dictionary" just like Finale/Sibelius -- so that it can switch to the appropriate articulation during playback.

This is not done yet but Denemo has a really really flexible scripting engine so even if its not done in C with a fancy gui and all scripts to do define parameters and put them in the staff are already possible.