Tune tempered

This forum section was originally created while we were discussing a new, additional engine and sampler format designed from scratch. In the meantime this resulted in our new SFZ2 engine, which is already implemented to a large extent. However this is still the right place for ideas, feature requests, drafts and plans for new engine / format concepts and ideas. We now have 3 sampler engines (Gig, SFZ2, SoundFont 2). Why not having more?

Tune tempered

Postby bodzio66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:40 pm

I don't know whether it what in the subject it is a good translation. I could not find the expression good at the dictionary. In Polish it is something completely different, but despite everything I ask for understanding and guessing!!! what I am writing about. In Poland we are calling this problem the dress, and at you it is an element of clothes....
I must for the beginning give to a bit of philosophy. I ask for the patience.
Spaces between sounds aren't mathematics. People in the days of Bach invented, that best to arrange sounds in even spaces by oneself - it is called "Well tempered". He supported this J.S. Bach. It wasn't bad so that well a grand piano or organs, or a harpsichord worked in all keys are needed in order to build twice as many keys. It would be very difficult for the playing. So a problem was oversimplified. To the benefit of this solution a fact of adapting oneself is starting to speak of natural tones. Real strings in the grand piano sound and just enough automatically are changing the time one's sound - are adapting themselves up to other aliquots. Thanks to that, the one in principle the false instrument well is being get back by the ear. Schools of tuning grand pianos are different so that it best adapts itself. Unfortunately, it what possible in kind in the electronic instrument will fail. Here no string is stimulating second with one's aliquots and there is no tuning up. But something is what is missing real grand piano. If only to dispose him supposedly the worker of the Chinese factory has an hour to it..... To i tak za długo, żeby dostroić instrument na przykład przed każdym utworem. One real instrument which has a function of fast retuning exists - it is a harp. So in the harp with pedals it is possible to switch over to determined keys so that they sound like best. So this invention I would want him to be in Linuxsampler. It would be wonderfully if with two clicks of the mouse I could change optimum tuning up for example to the B major key.
A bit too far I ran out.
Many centuries ago somebody (Pietro Aron?) invented natural tune for keyboard instruments (well tuned up to the ear). He is called meantone. Of course he isn't excellent, but good. Unfortunately by design instead of 12 keys we have 7. It is possible to use remaining, but we will hear the terrible falsehood then. Actually all are to playing, but according to principles - with music theory and in the vicinity of the scale of C major. F#-major sounds terribly. A theoretical possibility of moving this situation to all 12 keys exists in the electronic instrument. For example we will be playing the prelude C-major (Bach-Gounod) in C-major. It of course we need meantone for F-major.... YES!!! Because there is A-flat note there and. A-flat he cannot be in real meantone (C-major). There he is G# not A-flat! To the thing. In natural meantone (C-major) we have F# C# G# B-flat and E-flat. Not for example A#!!! Also spaces between white keys are different. But by it like nice a chord sounds C-major, d-minor, G-minor....... - but not F-minor!!!!
I am returning to my idea i.e. the transfer meantone to all keys.
Now numbers. I am giving the outline moved closer in round figures of tilts from Well tempered in cents. - tested by me in gigedit. There by hand I introduced these cents. And extra play:
1 +8,554 9
2 -15,396 -15
3 +1,711 2
4 +18,819 19
5 −5,132 -5
6 +11,976 12
7 −11,975 -12
8 +5,132 5
9 -18,818 -19
10 −1,711 -2
11 +15,397 16
12 -8,554 -8
Specially I numbered from 1 to 12, and I didn't give names of notes. It is template 1 = C, 2 = C#, 3 = D........
But just as well it is possible to start for example from A. Probably you are guessing what next.....
I must already finish, and here stayed as it to solve. There is still a problem swimming A. A is basic sound for adapting itself from other, and here at every key will have other deviation. Specially I also modified original meantone and I established regular maximum deviation up and into the bottom to 19 cent. The fact that kind of a specific height resisted the key at the average height. But it are everything secondary problems.
For the end. Don't think that I am exaggerating. For yourselves change secretly in gigedit (window tune pitch) both listen and play. Almost everyone will hear.
I am greeting
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:03 pm

Re: Tune tempered

Postby bodzio66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:44 pm

Excuse me, in the table it erased spaces for me.
The first digit in the column it is enumerating,
next exact number of the tilt and at the end rounding this tilt off up to the integral number
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:03 pm

Re: Tune tempered

Postby bodzio66 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:43 pm

Unfortunately from tiredness I made a mistake. Of course meantone 12 notes in the octave are supporting, and well tempered about 5 more. Strange? Let's not forget that to the one black notes two different sounds are falling - similar after all should be different.
As for the table, these are of course numbers from in the right hand column aren't a mathematical curve. Mathematics is of help, but more ear.
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:03 pm

The first success!!

Postby bodzio66 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:25 pm

Managed to solve the part of problems thanks to text file SFZ.
Much I tested and I reached things which can be valuable for everyone. That's all is straight like for the dope.
File SFZ has a headline before regions. It is an example of this headline:

It refers to everyone regions groups - irrespective of what entries they have. They are it of placing master for everyone regions. If only to place for all regions - transpose (that is of the entire instrument) it will be sufficient to add the line of the text:
Our instrument will be reduced by two halftones.
Unfortunately, if in one file we have SFZ more groups (of instruments) every headline will also be it is necessary to edit.
Identically he is with different effects and what I personally am interested in that is global tuning up the instrument. For example I want to tune the entire instrument up about 4 cent up - I am writing it in the headline:
If regions have different tune it is this order proportionally will change them. For example g# has a line written down:
it indeed will be 24 cents up! COOL!!!!!!
Of course in the case tempered it is necessary to put more work.
Every region it is necessary individually to edit, everyone with other value:
Fortunately tune neither transpose in the headline (global) aren't destroying an interrelationships between tune-regions.
In this way I can edit every instrument in the SFZ file, to grant other name him - for example:
I don't want to waste the valuable time supposedly only of one programmer to linuxsampler. I think that what here I demonstrated will be enough to place tune, tempered, transpose (and many other effects on the same principle).
However something for what I am begging is: About global (master) LS order to marking out of everyone channels, layers groups e.t.c. If not with one click of the mouse it is making the command line available master.
He will be enough, that it will be possible to write orders:
effects1=25 e.t.c.

But absolutely referring to everything!!!! in the current session LS.
What will be as in some <group> I will forget to add transpose=-2 ????
In other words, I think that some way of managing everyone is important global with placing the given session LS.
I am greeting everyone
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:03 pm

Re: Tune tempered

Postby bodzio66 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:49 am

Long I didn't write, because I am using every free time on tune pitch we set samples. I just finished some part of the work. I performed work individually on every sound with the accuracy to they Hz in audacity - in equal temperament. After writing lines down tune with complete numbers after the comma a trinket came out. Beautiful natural intonation in C-major (and surroundings).
Great thanks for the service built in of floating-point numbers in the SFZ implementation. Accuracy to one cent these are at least 100 times too little! In the formal SFZ specification tune he has only a service of integral numbers, LS is able much more. This way to hold!!!!
In previous topic I made a mistake claiming that entry in SFZ in group is replacing all analogous entries into the region. It's not true - it is on the contrary. Entries into the region are most important, entry in group he/she is only in force when there is no analogous entry into the region. Entries aren't adding themselves up. For example:
tune = 5 (group)
tune = 3 (region)
final result - tune = 3
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:03 pm

Tune tempered - I run to the front!!

Postby bodzio66 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:03 am

A lot I could do and wanted to share with you.
I solved the problem tune pitching samples. I work in ubuntu. You must install the following programs:
mhwaveedit and autotalent (this is plugin).
In window mhwaveedit effects dialog - There need to find autotalent. I need to change some default options:
- pull to fixed pitch = 1
- correction strength = 1
- formant correction = klik
- formant warp = 1
- mix = 0 (otherwise spoil the sound)
Note! Supports a single channel. Stereo needs to be done twice. Here you can change the channel to work. Mark - close window after applying the effect, because it crashes!
For now I must go. In the near future I will give the exact table for tuning the natural tune in all keys.
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:03 pm

Table Tune tempered

Postby bodzio66 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:08 am


Please note that entries tune=... on specific sounds such as Gb, not F #, etc. ..
Between Gb and F # is a very big difference - almost a quarter tone! Players must Gac remembering that at the time entry tune somehow deleted the F # to Gb! It may not sound nice C-Fb-G. Must be C-E-G, although the keyboard buttons are the same!
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:03 pm

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